The TroopHR Podcast

Ep 24. Redefining High Performance: Insights from Joy Sybesma, Founder of ScaleJoy, and Alli Trussell, SVP of People at Bilt Rewards

• Season 1 • Episode 24

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Host Taylor Bradley sits down with Joy Sybesma, Founder of ScaleJoy, and SVP of People at Bilt Rewards Alli Trussell, to redefine what high performance looks like in today’s workplace. Together, they explore how clarity, self-awareness, and adaptability drive success at individual, team, and organizational levels.

Joy and Alli share actionable insights on designing performance frameworks that align with distinct organizational missions, shaping leadership expectations, and driving sustainable growth. Drawing on vivid analogies like the “LeBron James team dynamic,” they illustrate the art of playing to individual strengths while fostering collective success. Paired with practical concepts such as Frank Slootman’s triad of “narrowed focus, increased velocity, and heightened standards,” this conversation equips HR leaders and executives with a toolkit to unlock potential and cultivate resilience across teams.

Listeners will walk away with fresh perspectives on scaling leadership principles, achieving alignment across teams, and creating a culture where employees thrive. Whether you’re blitzscaling a startup or refining processes at an established organization, this episode is packed with strategies to elevate performance sustainably.

Discover more about joining our community, upcoming events, and resources mentioned in this episode at troophr.com.

Credits
TroopHR Founder: Tracy Avin
Show Producer: Nicole Fealey
Show Host: Taylor Bradley

[00:00:00] 

[00:00:00] Joy Sybesma: We've been wrestling with this definition actually a lot. It's in the context of an individual and the context of a team and in the context of an organization. And the definition I think really is, there's some nuance between each of those, but we think all of them like really work together that you know, Like high performing individuals will do their best work on high performing teams and organizations are made up of high performing teams.

[00:00:25] Joy Sybesma: So if we really break it down to what does it mean? What does performance mean? I think it means reaching your potential. I think it means having focus and clarity of what you're trying to achieve. And being relentless to get there and I think Ali and I will really dive into a lot of what we've seen in like being the elements that lead to optimizing that or the highest level of performance 

[00:00:51] Taylor Bradley: What are some hallmarks you would notice of a high performing individual? 

[00:00:58] Alli Trussell: Well, I think you have to take a step back [00:01:00] to joy's point. It's defining performance for your company, which I think is going to be a little bit different for every single company. And so my whole theory is that everything actually centers around clarity, knowing what type of company you are and therefore what type of people do well at your organization and being able to identify that in a person, making sure that their motivations match up with what you're trying to drive as a company.

[00:01:24] Alli Trussell: And so it's going to be a little bit different from organization to organization, but I think something that high performers all have in common. is a passion for what they're doing and like a genuine care for what they're trying to get across. They have to have, there's no high performer that isn't motivated by their job in some way.

[00:01:45] Alli Trussell: And so when you can really weave that together, when you can get the best out of people, when you can make them excited to do what they're doing and make them motivate their peers. I think that's when you sort of get to Nirvana, 

[00:01:58] Taylor Bradley: a great [00:02:00] definition, joy when a CEO comes to you all and says, we need to start beginning to find what performance looks like in our organization.

[00:02:10] Taylor Bradley: You both have mentioned that it is going to be organization specific. What are some of the questions that you like to ask executives that you work with to start to frame out that conversation? Appreciate 

[00:02:23] Joy Sybesma: We love this. We love these questions. What is your, what is your mission and what's your time frame to achieve it?

[00:02:29] Joy Sybesma: I use this example a lot. I'm like, Okay, Elon Musk's deficient of high performance is probably going to be different than Joy Sebus Mozart's scale joy. Because he's legit like trying to change multiple industries and change the world simultaneously, right? I'm hopefully changing a little small part of the world, but it's very, it's relative, I think, to mission and timeframe to achieve it.

[00:02:52] Joy Sybesma: And therefore, like how much Fire to turn on to to getting the team to that level of performance. I had a [00:03:00] recruiter say this to me many years ago and I always stuck with me. She's you know, every CEO thinks they're the four seasons when many of them and their companies are like the holiday in and which is like kind of cheeky, but I do think it's, it's an important caveat to this conversation.

[00:03:16] Joy Sybesma: It's what Allie is saying is CEOs need to like, be very self aware. Of themselves and their organization of what their definition of high performance is relative to their mission, relative to their time from a mission and relative to like their level of high performance. And I think that's something Allie and I are seeing a lot in having these conversations is we know it starts from the top.

[00:03:37] Joy Sybesma: So we can't, we can expect the CEO to be baseline, but to expect higher performers than that CEO to join them in that mission is unlikely. 

[00:03:47] Alli Trussell: I like to use, I like to use like the LeBron James analogy, particularly with founders, you know, generalization, extremely smart people, extremely driven because like it's [00:04:00] their thing, right?

[00:04:01] Alli Trussell: I actually expect them in many ways to be the best performer at their company, straddling across so many functions. And so if you're founders of LeBron James. The rest of that team just needs to be really good and they need to be really good at getting LeBron James the ball and being really specific about what you need to pad yourself with.

[00:04:20] Alli Trussell: And that comes from that self awareness. But one of the things I'll always ask is what do you look like when you're performing at your highest, you know, potential? Because there is a lot of that's probably how they've built the company. Those are probably things that have made the company successful.

[00:04:35] Alli Trussell: And so like my whole philosophy is not really trying to reinvent the wheel. It's let's double down on what works because we're inherently going to find people who jive with that. And just to add on to that, 

[00:04:47] Joy Sybesma: if that's okay, Taylor I was recently writing in my newsletter literally about this topic.

[00:04:53] Joy Sybesma: And one of the things I was thinking about is just how critical it is to have self awareness of our strengths [00:05:00] and be able to utilize them like 80 to 99 percent of the time in our jobs. I think that's what Allie's pointing to is founder CEO, like at the top of the organization. We believe like the highest performing organizations have the right people in the right seat, and that means like that right seat is not just the jobs they can do, but the jobs that they're like inherently great at and then optimizing for the rest of the team accordingly.

[00:05:25] Joy Sybesma: So, really understanding like what Ali's saying, that question of what is what do you look like when you're operating at your peak? What what conditions need to be true in order for you to not only reach peak performance, but sustain it, which we could talk about more. More later seemed to like center to me, at least around like understanding who you are and having self awareness around your strengths, being in a role that allows you to utilize them.

[00:05:49] Taylor Bradley: Joy, what I like that both of you hinted at is the sustainable aspect of it. And because you brought up Elon, one thing that [00:06:00] my CEO and I talk about often is the analogy with SpaceX when we're deciding what objectives do we have? Are they the Falcon 9 objectives? Are they the immediate things? Are they the Starship objectives?

[00:06:13] Taylor Bradley: And we approach those two objectives in very different ways. Yeah, we want to end up getting to Mars, but that's over probably a decade time horizon. Yeah. And so you're to your point, you can only put so much pressure on folks for so long until it becomes unsustainable. When you hear executives give responses to your all's answers of this upfront building out the framework, what are some areas that are red flags to you?

[00:06:41] Taylor Bradley: When an executive gives feedback of, Oh, that sounds like you may not have baked this out as well as it should be. Or this is a common pitfall we see people go into when they start to think about high performance. Allie, would you like to give some input first? 

[00:06:58] Alli Trussell: Oh gosh I [00:07:00] actually try not to look at anything like a red flag because I think that's an easy way out to be quite honest.

[00:07:06] Alli Trussell: And I think anything that's coming across to you has the potential to have some morsel of truth in it. Yes. You know, having deadlines and expectations that are totally detached from budgets and reality is yes, we could go down that route, but I would be inclined to just actually ask more questions because to my earlier point, usually low performance is a lack of clarity somewhere along the way, and usually it's in a lack of aligned expectations.

[00:07:37] Joy Sybesma: And I would add on to that. We reference Frank Slootman's book, Amp It Up, a lot. But what I, I love about the framework that Frank Slootman gives is that in order to be like sustainably high performing, you need three things to be true. You need a narrowed focus and to Allie's point, like clarity around what that focus is and why that's the focus.

[00:07:56] Joy Sybesma: You need Increased velocity, and you need [00:08:00] increased standards, and I love those two at last those last two because those tend to be the trade offs that everybody thinks. Well, of course, we can do it better, but it's going to take longer. And the idea is, if you narrow the focus enough, you can actually produce like at the highest caliber in a relatively short amount of time.

[00:08:20] Joy Sybesma: But figuring out what the conditions are to make that true, I think is super fascinating. And I feel like nine times out of 10, the companies, at least that I have approached to see and to watch are, you know, Not focused enough. They're still trying to do too much. And so I feel like if we're going to say a red flag it's more of have they simplified it and distilled it down enough to the most important mission, the most important goals for this quarter, for this year.

[00:08:45] Joy Sybesma: And that I feel like is where a lot of companies could focus and spend some time on if they wanted to actually dial up their performance 

[00:08:51] Alli Trussell: quickly. And I think to that point, the one thing that I would layer on to that is particularly with highly ambitious goals. [00:09:00] You know, you can have the world's best athletes enjoy and I have built a lot of theories on this and like you've sprinters, you have people who run marathons, but you have to break things down into slight moments where you can take a breath where you can recognize where you can celebrate and you can give somebody like a quick water break before they get back into it.

[00:09:22] Alli Trussell: And I think to your point, like the continual, continual sprinting, nobody's actually built to do that. You have to build in these periods of rest, these periods of celebration, you can get people who can go longer, and I think we're all competing for those people, but you also have to, you know, make the conditions right for them, and I think that is, that's sometimes a pitfall that I see, is you're marching towards the super ambitious thing.

[00:09:47] Alli Trussell: But you never stopped to celebrate the milestones. 

[00:09:51] Joy Sybesma: And if I can just keep riffing Taylor, one more thing, Ali, Ali and I have done, I think probably 70 versions of a [00:10:00] deck around this. And we really got, we really fell in love with this like marathon analogy of you know, if anybody's, you know, passing out at the finish line, like we haven't succeeded, like, how do you actually, Really beautifully do the baton pass.

[00:10:16] Joy Sybesma: And I asked this question sometimes in workshops. I'm like, okay, imagine we all ran a race together. We all PR'd like simultaneously. We all hit our PR in that race. What everybody does next is a super fascinating question to ask. It'll be like, who's going to the bar with me? Raising your hand. Who's who needs to go to bed?

[00:10:35] Joy Sybesma: Who's shit, I could have done it faster. And I'm going to start training tomorrow. And so I think when we spin the optics to not the lens of what the organization and the CEO sets out, like to build a company that is high performing, we start thinking about like managers and leaders and what they do to sustain high performance.

[00:10:52] Joy Sybesma: I think it's actually really highly personalized and to Allie's point, Understanding what rest and breath looks [00:11:00] like for each person. And Allie and I think have somehow think, think the, you know, whatever we believe in, in the universe for bringing Allie and I together, but I, Allie has been like truly one of my sustainers for high performance and we've never actually been full time employees at the same company at the same time.

[00:11:21] Joy Sybesma: Each 

[00:11:23] Alli Trussell: other's orbit in some way or another, baking up some crazy scheme. 

[00:11:26] Joy Sybesma: Exactly. But I think it's super interesting. It's you know, what does someone need in order to, Allie, you coined this phrase a long time ago. Recover in a jog versus, you know, sprint and fully stop. Yeah. So if we can dial into what that looks like for each individual to get them to recover in a jog, I think is super fascinating.

[00:11:46] Taylor Bradley: I love that. On the analogy, some of the issues or concerns that I hear from leaders, particularly in the startup environment, is it's not for [00:12:00] everyone. Right now, my organization is going through blitz scaling and that isn't for everyone. So what tips or advice would you give to leaders? on attracting the right folks, attracting the folks that want to run the marathon.

[00:12:17] Alli Trussell: I'm going to go on a quick tangent here and it's going to tie back, I promise. But I think that this whole notion of like work life balance has always really fascinated me. I have a lot of I know it's a lightning round question, but it's actually the hot take that I actually take issue with because I can't think of one thing in my life that is actually balanced.

[00:12:36] Alli Trussell: And so the fact that we're going to strive for this and probably the thing that takes up the most of our life, save for maybe sleep, but probably not if you're listening to this podcast is crazy. And so I have really sort of tried to hone my approach to that because I do a lot of identifying people who can run the marathon or people who can sprint or the best baton passers who can recover in a jog and we [00:13:00] can continue to train them and get them better.

[00:13:02] Alli Trussell: But I think it's really defining what's your approach to work? Like, where do you want work to sit in the lives of the people that you employ? And that can be highly, highly personal. And I actually, I challenge both, both people in jobs, people looking for jobs and people recruiting people for jobs to get really clear about that.

[00:13:26] Alli Trussell: And I, you know, I've done that work myself. And I think the way that I think about it for myself. This is actually a really important part of my life. It's actually an important part of my identity. I like being good at my job and I like it being a part of my life. I'm of the mindset that at very minimum, and I haven't had a job where this is true, this is 40 hours of my week.

[00:13:49] Alli Trussell: What a shame to not want to invest in that. And if you think about it that way, and it's certainly I'm privileged. Like I, you don't have life things [00:14:00] that make that super challenging and people definitely can. And people can also be like, you know, screw this. This is totally to support my life and my lifestyle.

[00:14:08] Alli Trussell: And that is also totally okay. But if you have a misalignment there in who you're bringing in the organization and how they want work to fill up their life, you're gonna have problems down the road. And sure, there's talent, there's drive, there's, you know, endurance. that can play into that and you still might not land on the perfect person.

[00:14:31] Alli Trussell: But if people understand what motivates them and what's important to them, and you're able to ask those right questions, I think more often than not, you're going to find the people for your particular marathon, whatever that looks like. 

[00:14:46] Joy Sybesma: I would agree. I think identity is really interesting. And like the identity of work being a really critical part of who you are.

[00:14:54] Joy Sybesma: And and obviously that can can become unhealthy, super relative. [00:15:00] And, you know, Allie and I are in very different life stages. I have two kids at home and it's been very interesting, I think, navigating how both of us, like how, how we work. And I think to the point about work life balance, to me, it's actually it's an integration and it's looking at the whole of seven days.

[00:15:21] Joy Sybesma: And I think about work a lot more in the context of a seven day work week and how work starts and stops, how I show up for my kids, how I show up for my husband, friends, et cetera. But I think, I think there's something there around like where, Al you said it really beautifully, where does work sit in the lives of people you employ, knowing that that may change over the course of time.

[00:15:43] Joy Sybesma: But I feel like people who are driven and who are striving to achieve something beyond themselves, it likely, it likely doesn't change that much over the course of different chapters of life. It's just who they are. So I think [00:16:00] finding those people, finding people who have, Adaptability, which sounds like almost cliche to even say that anymore.

[00:16:06] Joy Sybesma: It's well, of course, but I recently was at a great event and they had this awesome keynote speaker who basically was like scaring everybody about the rate and amount of change that's coming. And he was like, literally adaptability is the superpower because the world will be so chaotic. You just have to be able to, to adapt it and go with it.

[00:16:28] Joy Sybesma: So identity adaptability And then I think I think this kind of circles back to what you were saying before, we've been talking a lot about how, you know, like Mr. Beast put out his onboarding document. There's been more and more of these, like very explicit how to be successful within the context of my organization.

[00:16:45] Joy Sybesma: I personally love it. I feel like we're onto something of every organization is not for everyone. Company leaders be explicit about who you are and why you are that way. And then let people decide where they're going to do their best [00:17:00] work. We recently had a group of chief people officers together for dinner.

[00:17:03] Joy Sybesma: And we asked them like, what were the conditions when you were the highest performing version of yourself? And we got a ton of really interesting answers, but one of them was like, when my values were the most aligned with my boss and I felt like the safety and the freedom to just run. So I think there's, there's a lot to be said about just being explicit about who you are and what your company is so that people can opt in.

[00:17:29] Taylor Bradley: For me. Personally, on my journey, there was a large media conglomerate, which we'll rename nameless, but I always wanted to work for them because I just thought it would be cool. And I eventually got two job offers from them and was able to go down to LA and meet with them. And this is where I feel like many.

[00:17:54] Taylor Bradley: Startups give too much power to the big companies or like the fear of them [00:18:00] is I got on site It was really cool to be on a studio lot in LA, but each job was you're gonna be operating in this box Like we don't, we don't need you to operate outside this box. And that wasn't attracted to me at all. Like completely evaporated, like my disillusion of what it would mean to work for a big Hollywood studio.

[00:18:20] Taylor Bradley: And instead I reverted back to finding opportunities that reminded me of my first job I ever had. Which was a firefighter paramedic. Like it feels natural for me to be operating in the fire. And that's what I love about blitzscaling. You'd have to offer me a lot of cash to go to something where it's you're going to offer me operating in a box.

[00:18:42] Taylor Bradley: Yeah. You could probably hit a number and I'd do it. But at the end of the day, what I'm looking for is. Flexibility. And I want to be able to take my daughter and my son to and from school every day. That's incredibly important to me, but I also love to, to grind it out. [00:19:00] And one of my favorite episodes of a show called the bear, which is about a Michelin star, it's just this montage episode that shows each person on how they're spending hours and hours perfecting their crafts.

[00:19:17] Taylor Bradley: And again, that's not for everyone. Not everyone may want to go to a Michelin star restaurant. Someone may enjoy getting that box assigned to them and be able to leave it fine. But that talent is out there. And that's something that I feel like leaders struggle with sometimes is they have to be, they have this mentality of, We have to mimic what Google is doing because that's what people want.

[00:19:39] Taylor Bradley: I'm like, not actually, you know, that all said, what are some use cases that you all have seen where you really feel like a company or a leader is just doing it right? They're holding true to what they want. You gave the example of Mr. Beast, which I found fascinating, but what other things really stand out to you of [00:20:00] folks doing this?

[00:20:00] Taylor Bradley: I

[00:20:02] Joy Sybesma: A couple examples are coming in mind. Okay, so first of all, I work with one company that is also like in blitz scaling mode, seeing a lot of success, but a lot of challenges as well. And they brought me on to help them build out their their manager training program.

[00:20:17] Joy Sybesma: But we didn't start from like the normal manager training program. You're going to do, you know, feedback and how to delegate. And it's very like skill based. We started with the founder to say, what are your principles around what it means to lead here? So that as the company scales, we can. Basically do it in your image and do it in the way that you philosophically are aligned to.

[00:20:42] Joy Sybesma: And Allie and I, this is one of our many pet projects. We founded a program called scale you, where we basically helped founder CEOs do this work. So this company, we, we did it. And one of the things that came out of it was this principle of we have the right, we've earned the right to [00:21:00] cultivate towards excellence in every seat and it sounds.

[00:21:05] Joy Sybesma: Like something that every company would say, but they, one had earned the right and two, it was super fascinating to see the managers of the company. And how they responded to that principle. They, to Ali's earlier point, it was clarity of this is the bar and this is what it means to be excellent in every seat.

[00:21:27] Joy Sybesma: And we expect you to be that and to cultivate a team that is that way, regardless of role or position in the organization. And I think watching not only the initial reaction of the managers, One of the things they said is, well, of course, because this is the level of leadership I've been exposed to.

[00:21:47] Joy Sybesma: So one, it's super validating. Two, it's like giving people the frame so they can have freedom within the frame. All of a sudden these people are like, wow, okay, what do I need to do? To keep doing, stop [00:22:00] doing, start doing to create excellence in my, in my function, because every other person in this organization is striving towards that.

[00:22:06] Joy Sybesma: I have to do that as well. So that, that was a great example. And I think to sum it up, just doing the work, starting at the top to identify what high performance looks like, what does it mean to be excellent and not trying to be like every other organization, but being deeply self aware and authentic and honest about what that is.

[00:22:28] Joy Sybesma: I think sometimes We can go too far on that. So, what Allie and I have found is. In doing work with founders, sometimes we're basically just helping them create a user guide to themselves. Right? And we need the right checks and balances to say, is this something that needs to apply and needs to be true for everyone in your organization?

[00:22:47] Joy Sybesma: Or does this just need to be true with you? So I think like having the right checks and balances and people leaders are great people to do this. And then maybe a different example is I work with a founder who took this too [00:23:00] far and probably pulled off, pulled out of really great employees and gave up on them too soon because they were missing like one operating principle that the founder believed was so critical, but probably had a blind spot.

[00:23:18] Joy Sybesma: Around it. So I think we're seeing constantly examples, but I think everybody is, is wrestling with this concept of high performance right now. And hopefully this type of conversation helps people really get clear on what the definition is for them. Allie, anything you'd add? 

[00:23:32] Alli Trussell: Yeah, I actually think it's worth mentioning how Joy and I actually initially got connected.

[00:23:37] Alli Trussell: So I was very new to a head of people role at a former company. My CEO at the time knew Joy, had recruited Joy many, many times to try and take that position. She kindly refused many times. And by the time I finally took it over through a series of events and in the middle of COVID, he asked me to meet with [00:24:00] Joy.

[00:24:00] Alli Trussell: I had predetermined that like I hated conventional HR. And so it was like, I was very not thrilled to be meeting with joy,

[00:24:11] Alli Trussell: did and within five minutes I was like, Oh my gosh, she's my soulmate. And we sort of cooked up this scheme, you know, some of it chalk it up to it being the middle of a pandemic and it's not thinking through all of the realities and all of the inputs. But it was more successful than it was not successful.

[00:24:29] Alli Trussell: And we actually built a very new approach to HR and performance within my organization. At that time, we called it performance acceleration. We ran a little startup within this company. We handpicked coaches that had some level of a coaching background, but had also done roles in the functions that we were going to have them support.

[00:24:54] Alli Trussell: And we had every single person in the organization have a chance to opt into this coaching and [00:25:00] we saw incredible results because every single person got individualized care into what mattered to them, what motivated them, what were their own unique blockers, and they had a space to work through it. And it's one of those things when you start succeeding at your job, it's addicting.

[00:25:18] Alli Trussell: And so it was really helping people help themselves and really helping people self motivate. I mean, we saw deals get closed. We saw people get promoted. We had 1. 80 percent of the organization voluntarily participating in coaching. And, you know, look again, it didn't work for a variety of reasons longterm, but for that year we saw something magical.

[00:25:40] Alli Trussell: And I think joy and I have continued to build on that over, I mean, how long have we known each other? Four 

[00:25:46] Joy Sybesma: years over the last four years. And just to conclude it because I know Taylor probably talking too long is we have this kind of shared formula that performance acceleration was an example of, which is like there's a formula for [00:26:00] defining high performance, which is like, what are our principles?

[00:26:02] Joy Sybesma: What are the stories that have shaped them? And give context into the why of, of those principles. And then what are the rituals that your organization is using to bring that standard to life day in and day out? And I think having embedded coaches was a great example of a ritual and something that we put in to sustain the level of high performance.

[00:26:20] Joy Sybesma: So hopefully that's a helpful example that, that we've shared. 

[00:26:24] Taylor Bradley: Absolutely. I think it highlights something important that came out of the pandemic period. I think one, there was a lot of, I call it HR drift where I think, Oh, HR way overcorrected on certain topics and issues and really became disjointed from the business.

[00:26:43] Taylor Bradley: But on the silver lining side, Allie, you'd mentioned essentially is non traditional HR leaders. Really shined in this period. They really well connected with the business to the benefit of the employees. [00:27:00] And so that's something that I do think came out of that period of time and tied us all the way back to the beginning of this conversation is making more adaptable.

[00:27:10] Taylor Bradley: Because that's going to be the key. I work at the bleeding edge of AI and working with frontier models. It's going to be wildly disruptive in the future. It's already causing a lot of impact now. Coming for a landing, though, here. I have two quick questions. Instead of a lightning round, we'll call it a concise round.

[00:27:33] Taylor Bradley: You can tell we're 

[00:27:33] Alli Trussell: not very good at one sentence answers, so he's, he's adapting. 

[00:27:38] Taylor Bradley: Neither am I. That's why I host the podcast, right? So the first question I have for the two of you, when it comes to To high performance. That's a big umbrella, a lot of different topics. What is just one aspect of high performance that you each love to talk about, just really passionate to talk about that particular [00:28:00] piece of high performance.

[00:28:01] Joy Sybesma: I have our joint answer. Great. Let's go. The combination of demanding and supportive leadership. So Ali and I love Robby Gupta former Instacart COO. And I was at Sequoia and one of the best like short form blogs. I think it's RVK blog anyway, Robby Gupta. He, he has one blog post that's called demanding and supportive.

[00:28:21] Joy Sybesma: And it's essentially stories about like how you need both. And I think what Allie and I have found together is that us as high performers individually, if we can call ourselves that, is that we flex between which role we play for each other, depending on the context that the other one's in. So if Allie has a boss who's really indexing on supportive, she's maybe going to lean on me to have a higher bar for her.

[00:28:48] Joy Sybesma: Like I have leaned on Ali for the last few years, both on both sides, demanding and supportive. And so like leaders as a call to action are you striking that balance? And that balance is likely different for each [00:29:00] person, but both people, everyone needs both. And if you're an individual saying I have one or the other.

[00:29:06] Joy Sybesma: You can be non conventional in finding the people around you. They don't necessarily have to be in your hierarchy or even in your organization to round that out, to give you that combination. And I feel like high performers need both. And I 

[00:29:19] Alli Trussell: think one thing I'm going to add to that is as people leaders.

[00:29:23] Alli Trussell: I think you have to be particularly adept at playing both roles. And that is something that I look for in high potential future people leaders. Can they read a situation and go, okay, whoa, I got a CEO who's really, really, really pushing this person's right on the edge. Okay. How do I balance that? Or conversely, CEO has a longstanding relationship with this person.

[00:29:46] Alli Trussell: Can't really push them in the way that this person needs to be pushed. Can you come in and do that? Because I generally look across leadership teams and people are generally better at one or the other, and it can be sometimes person [00:30:00] specific, depending on who they're dealing with. But I think that's the one caveat.

[00:30:03] Alli Trussell: I think a good people leader actually has to be able to chameleon between both. Agreed. 

[00:30:09] Taylor Bradley: Agree with that. And joy, to your point, I do think it's okay to recognize when you're a high performer, if you go ask LeBron James if he's good, he's gonna say yes. I think there's a difference between like over ego.

[00:30:23] Taylor Bradley: Mm-Hmm. , that can be a turnoff. But someone that's confident in their ability to drive high impact within a business, I think is something that. Many leaders are looking for in their organization. Final question for the two of you. Well, second to final question is. We've talked a lot about what executives look for, things of that nature.

[00:30:42] Taylor Bradley: What advice would you give to the individual of how to seek high performance in their own careers? 

[00:30:50] Joy Sybesma: Mm hmm. I mean, I think it starts with self awareness. Mm hmm. So really doubling down on what brings you joy. [00:31:00] What you could do for hours and hours without, you know, burning out what, what interests you, what you're curious about, like really diving into the anthropology of you and what, what work looks like as a result of that. And then not being afraid to like, go for it. Mm-Hmm. . I love the quote jump and the ledge will appear. I think we need to take risks in our careers and off. One of the answers from the What conditions led you to be the highest performing version of yourself?

[00:31:31] Joy Sybesma: We asked in our CPO dinner series was almost everyone said it was when they were over their skis. Mm-Hmm. . And they were doing something for the first time. So you don't have to be 20 years of experience to be a high performer. Sometimes it's like having the the risk appetite and the self-confidence to say I'm gonna try.

[00:31:54] Alli Trussell: And the thing that I would add on to that, cause I think I can build with the advice that I would give people. And this was actually my answer to the [00:32:00] best piece of business advice you've ever been given, but it's be the CMO of your function or be the CMO of your role. And what I mean by that is like a slightly altered version of fake it till you make it, which I think can get people in trouble.

[00:32:11] Alli Trussell: You know, don't get so over your skis that you're just lying. But storytelling is important. How you present yourself is important. The battles you choose are important. Making sure that ideas are actually connected and rooted back in the business. Make yourself look good. But that takes a lot of work, I think is, is the other piece of that.

[00:32:34] Alli Trussell: And so to Joy's point, get really clear about what matters to you, what you want, and then get really good at telling people that and back it up. 

[00:32:43] Joy Sybesma: And And one last thing, a CEO client of mine said, Joy, I'm always thinking about the room I haven't been in yet and trying to get in that door. And I think that's the other piece of advice is be bullish about cultivating your network [00:33:00] and up leveling.

[00:33:01] Joy Sybesma: Who is a super connector. She could do a podcast on that. But you know, like when, Just really knowing that like you are the, I don't know the exact quote, but like you're the sum of the five people that you spend the most time with. And someone said recently I don't know any losers who get up at 5am, but like surrounding yourself with other high performers in an intent, intentional way.

[00:33:26] Joy Sybesma: I think it's super critical too. 

[00:33:29] Taylor Bradley: Yeah. I, The, you, you said like the 5:00 AM thing. I, I just try to keep pace with my wife, . She wakes up at 4:00 AM with a high intensity workout every morning. Wow. So she's just running laps around me. But it is important who you associate yourself with. And I think back in my career, I was as reminiscing as you all were talking about, this is the roles that I've been least satisfied in were the ones that I was trying to [00:34:00] play it safe.

[00:34:01] Taylor Bradley: It was the role that I took measured risk, needs to be measured that I just loved. Like in my current role, it would be hard to take me out of my current role. I'm having a blast in, in the book. 

[00:34:16] Joy Sybesma: Happy for you. 

[00:34:16] Taylor Bradley: So that that's something exciting. Final question for you all, likely the easiest. Folks that have made it this far in the podcast obviously are interested in a few of you.

[00:34:29] Taylor Bradley: How, how can they get ahold of you all? So the outlet is open. Plug away. 

[00:34:36] Alli Trussell: Great. You can find me on LinkedIn. My last name is Russell spelt with a T at the beginning of it. 

[00:34:41] Joy Sybesma: Oh, that's good. That's yeah. And for me, LinkedIn, Joyce Sebasma. I know it's challenging. It's a S Y just go with joy. You'll probably find me off.

[00:34:49] Joy Sybesma: I didn't just be in the top 10 pop ups. But my company is scale joy. You can find me on scale joy. net that we do manager training, leadership development, HR enablement, CEO, coaching, et cetera. [00:35:00] And Allie and I now have an invite only dinner series called Wendy road for chief performance officers. So if anyone listening is intrigued, we'd be happy to tell you more.

[00:35:08] Joy Sybesma: You can get ahold of either of us to talk about that as well. 

[00:35:12] Taylor Bradley: Fantastic. Well, joy, Allie, thank you so much for being on the podcast today. 

[00:35:18] Alli Trussell: Thanks Taylor. So fun. We appreciate it. Yeah, this is so fun.